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Ideas unveiled for look and feel of Waterside Live

NORFOLK

Waterside Live will consist mostly of dining and live music and will feature roll-up garage doors that will give the complex an outdoor feel, a representative of the developer told city officials on Thursday.

Michael Stoltz from The Cordish Cos. of Baltimore provided the Planning Commission with new designs and details about what his company envisions for the former waterfront mall, which is owned by the city.

Drawings show Waterside Live with an open, glass roof, but plans are not complete.

“We will sit with the decision-makers in the city and ask for their advice,” Stoltz said.

Construction will start at the end of this year and should be completed by the summer of 2016, he said. Plans are to amplify the existing building’s characteristics.

Cordish’s restoration properties in Los Angeles, Kansas City, Houston and other cities feature lighted signs, guitars and lots of music.

“I don’t think you can have enough live music in our projects,” Stoltz said.

According to the plans presented Thursday, Waterside Live will feature:

• The urban feel of brick and concrete with lots of exposed steel and a stage inside for concerts. Tenants also will host live music.

• A common area that will feel like being outside. Ferry passengers could walk through Waterside Live without opening a door.

• A marketplace where local restaurants can sell food. “We really have found that you need a mix of the best nationals and the best locals to be successful,” Stoltz said.

• Signs facing the Elizabeth River to attract boaters.

Engineers, architects and contractors have toured the building the past few months to plan.

The City Council approved the deal with Cordish in August after years of discussing what to do with Waterside. The mall opened in 1983 and was a catalyst for downtown revival. But it languished after the opening of MacArthur Center and the rise of a restaurant scene on the Granby Street corridor.

The council approved a 50-year lease with Cordish and has given the company freedom to choose the rules for dining and entertainment, waiving the normal control the city exercises over bars and restaurants.

Most tenants in Waterside are gone. Outback Steakhouse, Hooters and Joe’s Crab Shack remain open.

Cordish has not yet named specific tenants it wants to bring.

Patrick Wilson, 757-222-3893, patrick.wilson@pilotonline.com

On Twitter? Follow reporter Patrick Wilson for Norfolk news.

 

Posted to: Entertainment Local Government News Norfolk Waterside

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“I don’t think you can have enough live music in our projects,”

Music is a draw for young and not so young folks. If done well, it can be a change agent.

“We will sit with the decision-makers in the city and ask for their advice,” he said."

At least we know who's in charge, and it's not the city of Norfolk.

It's Cordish.

Who's in charge.

That was always part of the contract. These are people who are experts in this type of project. The city is not so it only makes sense for them to be in charge.

It will do well if they

Toll and tax the crap out of it. First add a toll to get there because most of our money goes to healthcare and pensions for people that worked 20 years and retired for 40.
Check

Then huge fees to get a business liscense, workers comp, inspections, alcohol permits (really huge fee here) building permits and lots of red tape. And there will be other fees that pop up and go up.
Check

Make sure when you go to the city to get the permits there is someone rude there that makes it difficult to get the permits and does not really care because they get paid anyway. You will be like a rat in a maze.
Check

Then add a 12 percent tax to every bill of anyone who does go there to pay for overpriced stuff.
Check

Who wouldn't want to open a new business?

If you really want to draw a

If you really want to draw a crowd to the riverfront, recruit a Bass Pro Shop. Everywhere one is located it draws a crowd and to be located on the Elizabeth River with a beautiful view, it would be a hit. Have an area along the river for folks to try out their new fishing gear. I know there is one in Hampton, but with all of the proposed tolls and the Norfolk site being closer to Va Beach, a Norfolk Bass Pro Shop would prosper. As an incentive offer the site free. It would be cheaper than what is proposed there now, would attract more people, generate more taxes and be much more productive. Look at the Bass Pro Shop in Hampton and note all the restaurants that located around that.

Music here, Music there.

Let's just hope Waterside Live doesn't end up sounding like a Japanese stereo shop. CountryClassicMetalRap clashing with your Ribeye and Lobster sweet nothings.

is it just me...

... or does this look a lot like what Waterside hoped to be in 1983? If it didn't work then why would it work now?!

the thing that wouldn't leave

This property reminds me of the former Dome site in VB. Both are surrounded by a lot of hot air.

It did work

Waterside did work very well when it was designed and opened in 1983. As time went by it did its job of attracting others to the downtown and it became outdated. Granby Streets renovation and MacArthur Mall would not have happened without Waterside. That is why it is now being redone.

ehy!!

I wouldn't say outdated as much as the 757 came into its own. It wasn't anything special about waterside, people like to talk it up like it was this HUGE thing, but really it was just something "NEW". What do you remember that was similar to waterside in 83? In fact, 83-95?
Norfolk was the place to be. Now, just about every city has their "OWN thing". Its part of the reason Virginia beach residents talk so much trash about Norfolk these days. Crime was there in 83, still is, but it didn't stop many of you from coming to Norfolk in the 80's and 90's to get your entertainment fix. Now its like, why waste your time with parking, fees, crappy atmosphere, etc.. when you can simply go somewhere else for you entertainment.

It does look like waterside

It does look like waterside circa 1983 and if waterside had maintained and updated that model and their facilities then it would likely still be successful. But the city got tired of it, closed off access to the water and turned it into a mega nightclub, which was only really viable on the weekends and then only for young adults.

"mix of the best nationals and the best locals"

Sounds good.
Looking forward to it.
It would appear to be quite a draw for the younger set and also bring some of us from the "outskirts" into downtown more often.
Should be quite a mix of people. We might even see a Wizard there. If they have a bike rack, maybe even a Jettyhop.

beer summit?

I'll lock my bike to the nearest sign post, like I do everywhere else in this bicycle friendly city.

Providing that you're buying the rounds that is.

You're on!

Sounds like fun - I think.
Now if we can just get that Wizard to wave his wand for the next round.

All of those words are spelled correctly!

deja vu...
...all over again!

Does seem familiar, but do hope it works.

One thing seriously lacking in good 'ol Tidewater is more available live music, including jazz, blues, et al...

...and of course,
more bike racks!

Great Idea..except

I love the concept....but it is too bad it is in Norfolk, where the city fines owners for failing to put an apostrophe in their sign or because someone gets shot in the parking lot. Why any small business would set up shop in Norfolk under the current system is beyond me.

Yes, those problems can be avoided in VB

Just don't go to Town Center or the Oceanfront.

LOL

right, not family friendly at all. Anyone who knows anything about Cordish entertainment companies, they aren't built for Families.... But honestly, a family idea at the location was a loosing argument and suggestion from the start.

They need urinals to

Be installed in the garage stairwells...

last time I was there

it smelled like there already were.
For this to work something will have to be done about the problems that existed before.

Exactly

My point. Patrons would transit to the garage and relieve themselves in the nearest stairwell. I don't see it changing if the venue is more bars and music...

"roll-up garage doors" ???

Outdoors like Jack Rabbit storage units.

Problem last time....

Was the Government, City of Norfolk, took over the property. Should have been sold or auctioned off instead of falling under the Gov't to run it.

Hope this works.

signs, signs, everywhere signs

Signs facing the river seem like a no-brainer if the goal is to attract boaters. Kind of embarrassing no one ever though of that while it was under city management.

Still, I suspect it would be even more attractive to boaters if one of those signs said "Groceries".

Of course, signs of the scale seen in the renderings do seem like a flagrant violation of the Downtown Norfolk sign ordinances, so the city still has another opportunity to shoot itself in the foot.

I hope the new managers of

I hope the new managers of Waterside can also put a little pressure on HRT to add a sheltered waiting area and a ticket vending machine on the ferry pier.

This article is too premature and irrelevant at this time -

Please refrain from posting and reacting to this 'lack of detail' news piece. re-read- The mall opened in 1983 (30 years) and was a catalyst for downtown revival!. But the city leaders allowed it to languish after the opening of MacArthur Center and the attempted rise of a restaurant scene on Granby Street. Government shouldn't be in private business because they manipulate the growth of said business. Hopefully CORDISH has control and will return Waterside to the people. Remember 'Dueling Piano's?' The city shut them down because they became too rowdy actually too popular, drawing a lot of patrons from Granby St. scene, and Lone Star same crime, So let's wait and see what the real plan is. All I want is to have coffee in Peace in the AM

This article is too premature and irrelevant at this time -

Please refrain from posting and reacting to this 'lack of detail' news piece. re-read- The mall opened in 1983 (30 years) and was a catalyst for downtown revival!. But the city leaders allowed it to languish after the opening of MacArthur Center and the attempted rise of a restaurant scene on Granby Street. Government shouldn't be in private business because they manipulate the growth of said business. Hopefully CORDISH has control and will return Waterside to the people. Remember 'Dueling Piano's?' The city shut them down because they became too rowdy actually too popular, drawing a lot of patrons from Granby St. scene, and Lone Star same crime, So let's wait and see what the real plan is. All I want is to have coffee in Peace in the AM

Lack of vision

The poll could use a few more choices. This design will work for about 5 years at most. Our so called city leaders made this choice in haste without imaginative vision for downtown's long term future. Town Point park is now a non user friendly waste of space. It begs the question how the design was ever approved. Nauticus- not much more needs to be said. Battleship Wisconsin - looks good on paper. Bottom line is the Norfolk waterfront has huge potential that will not be realized. Too bad, I love Norfolk.

The only possible chance for

The only possible chance for this to succeed is contained in one of the last sentences of the article. That the Council is "waiving the normal control the city exercises over bars and restaurants."

Why Cordish and not the rest?

So if Cordish forgets to put the accent mark in their Luce the city will be looking the other way.

Sounds like a great business friendly way of doing business, what say we afford some of that clause to all our striving businesses?

Hmmm

Didn't they already try this, like in the 90s?

Overhead doors?

Over head doors? To be used in April and October? Will they also post Mosquito zappers?

Cant wait

Finally we will have more to do in the area.

I forsee conflicts

as the loudness of the music brings complaints from downtown condo owners. Also, chain restaurants with live music in a bad economy may not be able to support themselves. That said, a nice jazz club would be good for local musicians.

Limited Shelf life

I wish I was optimistic that there was enough room in Norfolk or all of Hampton Roads for that matter to have a vibrant Waterside and Granby Street and Town Center. But I'm thinking not all three will make it. We don't have the population to sustain everything. And the fall of Granby's independent restaurants will probably happen first. I'm sure the buzz will be great for Waterside Live when it opens as it is the new kid on the block. In time, it too will wane. But I predict it will be at the expense of local restaurants. Everything has a cycle.

I hope it….

….works. This is probably the lesser of the evils the “leaders” could have decided on. If memory serves, Jones gets the credit. At least that was the public line.

TI

Get ready to hand out the TI.
Whats the traffic count on Waterside Drive? Maybe 7,000.
They are waiting because there are no tenants ready to locate
where there is no critical mass to sustain retail life.

More of the same?

This sounds more like a reboot of the original design. I hope it brings in enough people in the long haul. I'm a city resident and I know that all my friends that live in the burbs are saying they won't go downtown because they're too nervous about something bad happening to them. If the city acknowledges this then they should look at making the garage well-patrolled with adequate lighting to help make folks not from the city feel more confident about coming.

And add lots of highly visible signs offering clear direction to the garage. Vagueness about where to park and how to access waterside can also deter people from coming. Oh, and make the parking rates reasonable.

Fresh Fish Market?

Why not make a fresh fish market for pour local fisherman to dock and sell some of their day's catch before they head off to market? We live in a great area that have a bounty of fresh seafood. I would come over from P-town to get fresh seafood if it was offered.

fresh fish marked? Great Idea!

Would be really cool
to ferry over from Portsmouth
get a beer n
LOCAL FISH n
fries or chips.
Right on the river
on a hot summer night,
then catch the ferry back to Portsmouth.

Enjoy the colors
of the pretty, bright, advert lights
From ferry, or the Portsmouth side,
all night, for free, no cost, no fee.
P'haps the Bier Garden's best for me.

Must watch the time, 'cause the last boat home
'tis 21:30 winter/23:30 summer.
And missin' either would be a bummer.

Won't happen anyway...far too low-brow and frugal for Waterside.
Then again, maybe somewhere in Portsmouth,
down near the water
where the lights from Norfolk
dance on the water...

At first glance--

---it looks a lot like Baltimore's Inner Harbor design!! Not surprising since Cordish is based in Baltimore. They have done a good job there with live music and good restaurants, hope Norfolk has similar success.

DUDE!!!! The same person who designed Baltimore Inner

Harbor designed our waterside OPENED IN 1983!! the biggest difference is city government - Baltimore Gov. doesn't interfere with free markets where as Norfolk is up everyone's butt and controls every thing a business was in business for, case in point the Recent Restaurant Debacle - Luce, they fined the owner because he deviated slightly from the original sign design, he made it better but the city penalized them just the same - so to start a business here , expect to turn it over to the city, Oh, the city owns every entertainment venue downtown with the exception of the NORVA, Chrysler Hall - Wells Theater, scope, etc...

Ghirardelli lookalike?

Perhaps there could be a remake of the old original waterside, similar to SF's Ghirardelli Square.

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